CentsibleSaver wrote:

Lexie wrote: You're exactly right Centsiblesaver. However, I am old enough to have seen workers in Detroit price themselves out of a job.

Lexie, I apologize for my rudeness in my last post that you have responded to. Goodness, I can sure be a self-righteous, know-it-all at times.

I'm from a union family (electrician, teacher, cop) and the union has helped the immensely. I'm not in a union because my job doesn't qualify, and I'm expected to always be "on". On the other hand, my sister is in a union and she works forty hours a week or she gets overtime. She isn't attached to her computer or cell phone all day to check work email and respond to client inquiries. She is allowed, even encouraged to take time off for vacation. On the other hand, I think many of us have jobs where "vacation" means working in another location instead of the office. I have a different perspective because I've witnessed the good. I think deregulation, lobbyist, and pure greed are mostly to blame for the eradication of decent paying jobs. But, I can see your side to and appreciate your sharing a different viewpoint. Thanks for sharing the articles; they gave me something to think about. Thank you for being so gracious in your response to my post!

I can tell you when I take vacations I never stop looking at my phone and its almost impossible to get away.

Lexie wrote: You're exactly right Centsiblesaver. However, I am old enough to have seen workers in Detroit price themselves out of a job.

Lexie, I apologize for my rudeness in my last post that you have responded to. Goodness, I can sure be a self-righteous, know-it-all at times.

I'm from a union family (electrician, teacher, cop) and the union has helped the immensely. I'm not in a union because my job doesn't qualify, and I'm expected to always be "on". On the other hand, my sister is in a union and she works forty hours a week or she gets overtime. She isn't attached to her computer or cell phone all day to check work email and respond to client inquiries. She is allowed, even encouraged to take time off for vacation. On the other hand, I think many of us have jobs where "vacation" means working in another location instead of the office. I have a different perspective because I've witnessed the good. I think deregulation, lobbyist, and pure greed are mostly to blame for the eradication of decent paying jobs. But, I can see your side to and appreciate your sharing a different viewpoint. Thanks for sharing the articles; they gave me something to think about. Thank you for being so gracious in your response to my post!

Lexie appreciate the link ... just finished reading it. Sure don't know how I missed any info but your story was quite complete. The whole Union thing is tough. I worked for Ford at one time and the unions priced US Car Makers out of the market place. Survival took a lot of offshoring and the installation of automated systems (robots). The end results ... men and women who can not get good paying jobs such as in manufacturing. On the flip ... many industries exploited the employees to the point of gross abuse. What to do?

CentsibleSaver wrote:

Lexie wrote: Wanderer, I recently saw a picture of automatic ordering boards at McDonald's with the caption "The result of workers demanding $10 -$15 per hour. Your position has been eliminated." Sad but true.

Well thank goodness we know who to blame. And here I thought that fat $15 million dollar check to the CEO could be the issue. Thank goodness our country is moving back to the times with no labor laws or regulation to stand in the way. Companies were allowed to just do their thing back then. Remember how benevolent robber barons were?

I might believe the pay issue if McDonald's had not been sued over and over again for forcing their employees to work off the clock and stealing their wages. McDonald's wasn't even willing to pay the minimum wage, so even that was too high! Be real, the robots are coming because rich people don't want to pay for anything. Period. No insurance, retirement, wages, taxes, workman's comp, or safety. In Europe McD's pays $12ish, in Australia it's close to $15. Why? The laws in those countries force them to pay adults that much. And McDonald's still turns a profit! By the way, you mentioned the workers demanded to be paid $15, did McDonald's ever actually pay that much? Wouldn't you agree that the workers weren't in the position to demand anything? By all standards right now, workers have little to no rights. Most states are right to work states and the labor department has signaled that it's now ruled by someone who is on the side of the employer. So, that $10-$15 issue is just an excuse.

You're exactly right Centsiblesaver. However, I am old enough to have seen workers in Detroit price themselves out of a job. The same thing with furniture factory workers. When workers start demanding more wages and bringing in the unions, things tend to go south. I personally know of one furniture factory owner that padlocked the doors when the union came in. Everyone was out of work then. You can only push business owners so far. Now in the case of McDonalds, I'm sure they are not hurting financially at all and there has been no mention of unions. It is my understanding they do have a huge turnover in employees for one reason or another and I actually did see the automated ordering devices online. There used to be loyalty between employee and employer but it's just not there anymore.
Here is the link to McDonald's automated Kiosks https://www.neowin.net/news/mcdonalds-orders-7000-touchscreen-kiosks-to-replace-cashiers

Wanderer, here is one of the images I was talking about!
http://www.inquisitr.com/1594675/mcdonalds-counters-minimum-wage-hike-15-automation/

Lexie wrote: Wanderer, I recently saw a picture of automatic ordering boards at McDonald's with the caption "The result of workers demanding $10 -$15 per hour. Your position has been eliminated." Sad but true.

I can't believe McDonalds corporate allowed that to be honest!

Lexie wrote: Wanderer, I recently saw a picture of automatic ordering boards at McDonald's with the caption "The result of workers demanding $10 -$15 per hour. Your position has been eliminated." Sad but true.

Well thank goodness we know who to blame. And here I thought that fat $15 million dollar check to the CEO could be the issue. Thank goodness our country is moving back to the times with no labor laws or regulation to stand in the way. Companies were allowed to just do their thing back then. Remember how benevolent robber barons were?

I might believe the pay issue if McDonald's had not been sued over and over again for forcing their employees to work off the clock and stealing their wages. McDonald's wasn't even willing to pay the minimum wage, so even that was too high! Be real, the robots are coming because rich people don't want to pay for anything. Period. No insurance, retirement, wages, taxes, workman's comp, or safety. In Europe McD's pays $12ish, in Australia it's close to $15. Why? The laws in those countries force them to pay adults that much. And McDonald's still turns a profit! By the way, you mentioned the workers demanded to be paid $15, did McDonald's ever actually pay that much? Wouldn't you agree that the workers weren't in the position to demand anything? By all standards right now, workers have little to no rights. Most states are right to work states and the labor department has signaled that it's now ruled by someone who is on the side of the employer. So, that $10-$15 issue is just an excuse.

Wanderer, I recently saw a picture of automatic ordering boards at McDonald's with the caption "The result of workers demanding $10 -$15 per hour. Your position has been eliminated." Sad but true.

Lexie miners did not always earn this much. In the old days one mine used 3,000 employees and before it closed they put out the same quantity of iron ore pellets with a few hundred (modernization). Where there was five different jobs, today it would be rolled into one so the requirements for the employee of today are high in skills and knowledge. To compete in a world market each job has to contribute a lot to keep the costs down and as has been proven robots and small work forces seem to be the wave of today.

Wanderer wrote: Lexie I live by the Superior National Forest and several open pit iron mines surround us. Today technology is huge and rampant in the mining operations. A miner today can earn around $70,000 to $120,000 per year depending on overtime. The days of picks and shovels is replaced with cameras, control rooms, computers and state of the art technology along with huge equipment. A miner is often looked to repair and keep running the equipment along with maintaining the robots and software that controls the same. Mining companies (owners) are now from around the globe and they expect their workers to have skills that fit into the modern world. Yes, there are a few laborer jobs but most jobs require higher skill levels. Preference runs with a background provided through a two year program at a post-secondary school.

I totally agree Frankn. A two year program concentrated in one area is far from a 4 year degree where there are many "required" courses not related to the skill one is trying to learn. Technology training is a given in today's society and many graduate from high school with a 2 year associates degree. I never dreamed a miner could make so much. I was in the wrong profession.

FrugalFran wrote: We have lost so many of our tradespeople to the lure of high paying professions. If I had a child college age, I would not push him/her to go to college. Look at the overall needs of community and society and pursue a trade/job in that area. Deemed "blue collar", many are making far more than a professional paying off student loans will ever hope to make.

My best financial decision was to not have kids. I can't imagine covering my school, theirs, and retirement. Unions are hard to find now due to state laws taking away labor rights, but it's worth joining if you can still find one. My sister is a member of the electrical union in a right to work state, but it still gives her plenty of protection and benefits. Unfortunately, I think kids today also need to be willing to move to where the jobs are located and should consider union options in that area too.
We're probably all doomed anyway - *whispers* the robots are coming.

Lexie I live by the Superior National Forest and several open pit iron mines surround us. Today technology is huge and rampant in the mining operations. A miner today can earn around $70,000 to $120,000 per year depending on overtime. The days of picks and shovels is replaced with cameras, control rooms, computers and state of the art technology along with huge equipment. A miner is often looked to repair and keep running the equipment along with maintaining the robots and software that controls the same. Mining companies (owners) are now from around the globe and they expect their workers to have skills that fit into the modern world. Yes, there are a few laborer jobs but most jobs require higher skill levels. Preference runs with a background provided through a two year program at a post-secondary school.

CentsibleSaver wrote:

FrugalFran wrote: . . . cost versus the paycheck when you graduate is so off kilter that it seems like it's starting to only make sense for professionals, like doctors and lawyers.

I believe students are being pushed towards a trade right now rather than traditional college. At least, that's how it seems in my area. You have to look around, but some states and cities are funding certain degrees. I think NYC, Arkansas, and Tennessee all have programs that help with college.

We have lost so many of our tradespeople to the lure of high paying professions. If I had a child college age, I would not push him/her to go to college. Look at the overall needs of community and society and pursue a trade/job in that area. Deemed "blue collar", many are making far more than a professional paying off student loans will ever hope to make.

FrugalFran wrote: . . . cost versus the paycheck when you graduate is so off kilter that it seems like it's starting to only make sense for professionals, like doctors and lawyers.

I believe students are being pushed towards a trade right now rather than traditional college. At least, that's how it seems in my area. You have to look around, but some states and cities are funding certain degrees. I think NYC, Arkansas, and Tennessee all have programs that help with college.

As to less seniors through to 2025 ... it is based on the actual number of students not drop out rates. Population demographics. As another poster mentioned, deciding what area to pursue in college also may not be easy as there is big money for the colleges and related to make and their goal is to enroll students. In response ... life isn't always fair and as a student to be you need to call upon resources that are available. There is no simple answer and never has been. One thing I do see is a degree from a four year institution in Liberal Arts is not a guarantee on the good life. Back in the '70s employers wanted a four year degree college graduate (virtually any field) and they would train for the job. Today, it appears many jobs are looking for someone with academic accomplishments in the area of pursuit. There is market for two year and vocational degrees/certificates and often the jobs pay well ... example mining companies have jobs for two year people and pay $70,000 to $120,000 per year (note it is not an easy area to work in), the medical field and areas such as the mechanical trades that may include apprenticeships. When you research areas of pursuit the top best ten to fifteen jobs are doctors, health care professionals, followed by engineers of various backgrounds with financial and human resources topping out in the $110,000+ per year. In my view (covering a life time), a high school graduate or less will have a very hard time in our society today for ever making a living wage and whether it is fair or not does not matter. It is about going with the flow. Looking back over a long time the types of jobs (manufacturing) that paid well and required a minimum level of education have been outsourced off shore leaving people without that opportunity. When I was young we could work for good wages and be in manufacturing. Today in the United States it is a service driven economy and the old ways are gone (most unfortunate) but life is ever changing.

Wanderer wrote: You make a really good point ... before investing in student loans determine the reality of a payback for the time and money to be invested.

Except the reality is impossible to find! There is big money in college, doesn't matter if it's a state university, community college, a private university, or a for-profit school. These colleges and the organizations that rank them have a tremendous incentive to re-define terms like employment and pay scale both of which are factors that students consider. What the student never knows until it's too late is that most schools count "employment" as working anywhere from Wendy's to being a CEO. And even when it's broken down into "did the grad find a job in their area of education" the numbers aren't reliable because a grad is counted as" being in the filed" if they do anything remotely related, far beyond what any reasonable person would expect. As a matter of fact, my own college hired unemployed grads of their own just to put them on the books as "working in their field". This was a top school, by the way. It's all about playing games with the numbers so your program will rank higher.

As a society we're always told that the United States is a meritocracy, but the reality is that these nice jobs are insular and your in is usually your white, wealthy dad. Plus, you are never told about the never ending fees in your field from state professional taxes to continued education classes to licensing again and again and again many of which require more exams than are imaginable and that's for each area in the same darn field. Student hopefuls also don't learn that a professional governing body can suspend your license which renders your degree as useless. It's like you never went to school in the first place - except for the debt. Or, the licensing body can refuse to allow the graduate to sit for the exam in the first place for many reasons one of which is having too much debt.

Trust me, I did my research! I joined the forums, followed the governments advice, read every book, asked tons of questions, took note of what the experts were suggesting, and took a pathway that was based on well-reasoned information - or so I thought! But, the reality of what a graduate could expect purposefully hidden until it was to late. So many graduates have experienced this. By the time a person realizes what has happened it's just too late. The student possibly quit another job. they've likely moved, leases have been signed. They've spent money on applying to these schools and have already paid a significant amount in entrance exams. The required professional clothes or work items have been bought on credit cards and that interest will rack up. Money has already been borrowed that will not go away. At that point, what can you do but stay the course? So often we blame consumers for being careless or spending needlessly when it isn't an even playing field.